tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post1663223879785734437..comments2023-05-21T01:53:32.046-07:00Comments on Marginal Perspectives: What Am I?ms. marginaliahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-78767989629763293452010-10-18T14:46:41.546-07:002010-10-18T14:46:41.546-07:00I know Julia you are so right. I am still left wi...I know Julia you are so right. I am still left with the questions, what makes someone an adoption expert?<br /><br />I read some of Dr. Mercer's other work and it seemed to be aimed at the lowest common denominator, gems like, "Not all children like sitting on Santa's lap" I am sorry, but I knew that as a druggie teenager, I mean srsly? <br /><br /><br />Not that aiming toward the very dim lessens your responsibility, it actually increases it. It was shocking to me as well that Dr. Mercer making the abusrd claim that Kara and I believe our personal experience trumps all and was at odds with "scientific evidence" then it was revealed that scientific evidence was non-existent wasn't deeply embarrassed. She should have been.<br /><br />It is awful to diminish and dismiss and be an obstacle to people getting help that they need on the basis of conjecture, speculation, and opinion. <br /><br />That is how some people roll though. I think they should start a lively debate on exactly when human infants become actually human. Clearly not at birth, at birth they are some sort of soulless toy. Exactly when, do some infants become human sooner than others? There may be no hard science on this but you know I bet it has a direct correlation to comforting APs. Dr. Mercer may have a strong if unstudied opinion on it. I am sure I will learn a lot. <br /><br />Except f*ck if I am ever exposing myself to that again!joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15658928829424953809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-33749819332564746092010-10-18T08:41:51.113-07:002010-10-18T08:41:51.113-07:00Kara,
Thanks for the cyberhug. I offer you one in ...Kara,<br />Thanks for the cyberhug. I offer you one in return.<br /><br />For the record, everything you heard as hurtful, I also heard as hurtful. And I didn't think you were being hostile at all. But this is how the crazymaking "angry adoptee" thing works, I guess, right? Someone holds a belief that you will be hostile because you are an adoptee, your behavior is then read as hostile even though it isn't, and you are then dismissed as hostile (and then, I imagine, have the "wtf just <i>happened</i> reaction: I don't think I'm hostile, but maybe I was hostile, but I don't think I'm hostile, etc.) I thought you spoke up for yourself in a healthy way, but people couldn't hear it like that.<br /><br />Back to the power thing for a minute. I guess what I was also trying to say is that often such conversations have--I don't know what else to call them--meta-conversations going on beneath the surface. The one that I saw going on in that conversation was something like "is adoptees' experience valued?" "do adoptees get to be heard?" "are APs and experts willing to share the power here with adoptees?". I think those meta-conversations are important and necessary, perhaps more important than whatever conversation is going on "substantively." I think it's easy for APs to see these meta-conversations as off-topic and distracting, which might be part of what happened. But I also sensed that some APs didn't feel that they should have to answer these questions, because they think of themselves as thoughtful, open-minded APs (and, in many ways, perhaps they are...) Personally, I think that whoever traditionally has the power has to always be willing to go the extra mile to demonstrate good faith, trustworthiness, willingness to listen, willingness to hear criticism, etc. when in conversation with the party that has traditionally held less power. We don't lose our power just because we become (somewhat) "enlightened" but we may be able to find ways to give some of it away.<br /><br />Sorry for the rant/disquisition. I'm done now. :)<br /><br />And I am always happy to talk. You have my email address. Please feel free to use it if you wish.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945385659698659077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-9532828849181881892010-10-18T08:20:48.777-07:002010-10-18T08:20:48.777-07:00Joy,
I also thought that it made a good deal of se...Joy,<br />I also thought that it made a good deal of sense to focus on the first six weeks, because you would think that everything else that follows would be influenced by that period. <br /><br />And, I haven't seen "off and running," but I think I understand your point about trauma. Trauma is by its nature a subjective experience. I heard someone say once "the worst thing that ever happened to you is the worst thing that every happened to you"--there's no real comparing across people/experiences/etc. I'm with you--if someone is acting as if they've been traumatized, they probably have been traumatized.<br /><br />Finally, I agree that no one was attempting to be malicious, but I was disappointed all the same by what I saw as a failure to simply acknowledge they might not have all the answers AND a failure to understand the power they hold as APs in a conversation like this.(In the interests of full disclosure, I am an AP, and do not by any means think that I don't mess up. Cause I have and I do, although I don't always know when.) It especially irks me when I think that it would take <i>so little</i> from the APs to constructively address. <br /><br />And it ends with adult adoptees (mostly) and APs (mostly) in separate camps, which is exactly the opposite of how I would like it to end.<br /><br />(sorry for such a long reply...)Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945385659698659077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-42163584336366750632010-10-15T13:21:26.538-07:002010-10-15T13:21:26.538-07:00Julia, I am really thankful for your insights and ...Julia, I am really thankful for your insights and support. I spent much of Wednesday night talking to Joy on the phone and trying to figure out how I could have been dismissed so rudely when all I was trying to do was keep dialogue open and explain why this was important to me.<br /><br />It was striking that after all the "there is scientific evidence that says you're wrong," there was no such evidence supplied. No facts, no data. It is thus opinion vs. opinion. It remains unproven, to be sure, but then why not keep an open mind? And then to have an admission after the fact that there *is* no significant research--and no apology to me?<br /><br />I have a background in academia and evaluate theories and assertions by what lies behind them. I know that the PW is anecdotal; I never said any different. I was simply saying that in the absence of a clear consensus, there is value in considering many different viewpoints. But no.<br /><br />I also very much concur with what you said about power imbalances. Infants are voiceless, and I was one of those infants. To have the infant dismissed, along with me, was very triggering. The "adults" in the situation (APs, fparents, mental health professionals) tend to have a lot more credibility than adoptees--even though I am very much an adult at 41 years of age. The dynamic is terribly inflexible. It's remarkably sad. <br /><br />I really didn't intend to be hostile, and anyone who knows me well can attest that would be one of the last words used to describe me, but somehow I think my message was perceived as knee-jerk and radical and transgressive, rather than simply critical. <br /><br />I have been singing your praises to my family and friends since your kind post. I find it really hard to stick up for myself, and even after all that happened, I was blaming myself for somehow being rude and out of line. That I imagined a slight where there was wrong. They assured me that it was okay to feel hurt by being called "amusing." Again, my experience living adopted has led me to doubt myself to the core, even in silly online arguments! <br /><br />For all that you gave me, I offer you a huge cyberhug and hope that we can talk more. I am sure that I have a lot to learn from you. <br /><br />Karams. marginaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-89538263481075565562010-10-15T12:20:11.137-07:002010-10-15T12:20:11.137-07:00That is kind of you Julia, (this is Joy, not Kara)...That is kind of you Julia, (this is Joy, not Kara) I appreciate your support. I honestly think that the dismissiveness by most of them was not malicious but just a testament to the lack of awareness of what the mother/child bond is. I do think there are a few malicious characters over there, but that is another story. <br /><br />I thought it was important to bring up because if your foundation about attachment is so skewed how can anything following on that trajectory be honest/helpful/authentic. It is not just a simple matter of exchanging an (in)competent caregiver for hopefully a competent one. There is more to it than that. Otherwise why aren't adoptees talking about finding their foster parents? <br /><br />While I am sure their are cases of this, it by and large is a search for mother, even if it is couched in "medical history". It makes me think of that scene in "Off And Running" that so many adoptees had issue with. The adoptee in this case, Avery, is becoming continually alienated from her adoptive parents. They are flummoxed, "She is behaving like she has been through a trauma, but she hasn't" One of the seemingly caring adoptive moms asserts. Clearly believing as Jean Mercer does that before 6 months, anything goes. <br /><br />It was also disheartening to be dismissed with "you just think your personal experience trumps all" which is a fairly passive aggressive way to suggest we are so naive and narcissistic as to not be able to form conclusions on a much broader basis. <br /><br />Yes, my personal experience is very important to me, but just because I am an adoptee, I am one of the many-- My story is relevant to the broader story of adoption. <br /><br />The irony was even more insulting in light of the fact that the person who asserted this was basing it solely on personal opinion. <br /><br />It is not a neutral opinion, families like Avery's will really suffer from attachment "experts" denying what is in fact lost and the abiding nature of the loss. It is too vital and primary to let slide.<br /><br />The idea that I am supposed to be thrilled on the basis that someone doesn't believe in mashing children with blankets, well that seems like a pretty low expectation to me.joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15658928829424953809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-79646732886711407712010-10-14T07:21:07.322-07:002010-10-14T07:21:07.322-07:00I know this is not the appropriate place for this ...I know this is not the appropriate place for this comment, but I didn't know how to reach you. I just checked back into the conversation at OSoloMama and am really disheartened and angered by how the exchange between you and her ended.(Or, I guess I should say, how OSM ended it)<br /><br />I'm figuring out how to respond. In the meantime, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry. It sucks. Your questions all made sense to me, and I think they deserved answers.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945385659698659077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-19507104010082382722010-10-13T12:24:12.848-07:002010-10-13T12:24:12.848-07:00Once again, stunned and wordless...
Like Lorraine...Once again, stunned and wordless...<br /><br />Like Lorraine said, she is the loser, not you. <br /><br />(((Hugs))) -<br /><br />M.Valencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07294597848891868176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-77443430941035738262010-10-12T17:57:25.677-07:002010-10-12T17:57:25.677-07:00Oh, I am so very sorry. Some women have locked the...Oh, I am so very sorry. Some women have locked themselves up so tightly that they can not undo their hearts. But you are taking the right road. You have a right to your own life. <br /><br />take care of yourself...she is the loser, not you. Yet I know those words do not push back the hurt and rejection from her.<br /><br />lorraine from <br /><br /><a href="http://www.firstmotherforum.com/" rel="nofollow">First Mother Forum</a>Lorraine Duskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285341379272250245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-66702909282877774452010-10-11T14:40:47.362-07:002010-10-11T14:40:47.362-07:00Thank you for your support and expressions of cari...Thank you for your support and expressions of caring. I know on a rational level it isn't about me, but it still hurts. I never imagined that my fmom would be so cold and damaged. It's so much unlike how I function, and it seemed it was not how my brother functioned, either. At one point he told me I should be glad not to have been raised in that family, which hurt, but I can see how it makes sense from where he stands.ms. marginaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03854609171313401651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-58162838508082106402010-10-10T17:37:44.980-07:002010-10-10T17:37:44.980-07:00I am SO sorry that you have been treated like this...I am SO sorry that you have been treated like this. As a first mom, I cannot even begin to imagine treating my child like this, to not desire to know your child, to have no questions that need answered, nor desire to answer my child's questions. <br /><br />I'm at a loss for words, other than to again say I am so sorry. <br /><br />First Mom hugs,<br />SusieSusiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929169562563801608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-89462764495676723222010-10-09T21:42:33.540-07:002010-10-09T21:42:33.540-07:00I am so glad you have started blogging this. I am...I am so glad you have started blogging this. I am learning so much about a good friend. So much you didnt share with me because you felt I wouldnt understand, felt I couldnt know how to validate. It is so eye opening and wonderful to get to know this side of you.Jenn Sivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07106499855129183524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32292276.post-23115260686121821612010-10-09T20:38:40.811-07:002010-10-09T20:38:40.811-07:00You are a wonderful, beautiful creation of God'...You are a wonderful, beautiful creation of God's own design. You are not an accident. You are not an afterthought. You are not a mistake. You cannot determine your self-worth by how someone else treats you, no matter how hard they try to dehumanize you. In God's eyes you are priceless.<br /><br />The way C is treating you is unfair. It's wrong. But don't let that get to you. I know that sounds preachy coming from an outside who is not in your shoes. But, seriously, C sounds like an extremely controlling woman. If she affects your estimation of your own self-worth, she is successfully controlling you as well. Don't let her. <br /><br />Say a prayer for her. She sounds like an extremely fearful and miserable person. She could use some prayers to help her break through the concrete walls she has so painstakingly built up around herself.<br /><br />The ending to this story has yet to be written...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03094017054916752470noreply@blogger.com